Intimacy Redefined: Overcoming Low Desire with Jessa Zimmerman

Intimacy in Midlife....Hmm. If I am not wrong, you are either SUPER excited about this subject or like, Ugh. Really Cam and Amelia? Sex and intimacy can be a hot-button topic not matter what your age, but it can be extra challenging in midlife. But, Jessa brings a fresh, frank perspective that makes this subject less daunting...and less embarrassing.
We hope you'll give this a listen and let us know what you think.

Connect with Jessa Zimmerman, Certified Sex Therapist

On Instagram:
https://www.instagram.com/intimacywithease/

Website:
www.intimacywithease.com

Free resources:
https://www.intimacywitheasemethod.com/pl/2147554402

New mini book about desire discrepancy:
https://www.intimacywithease.com/desirebook 


00:02:06 Sex therapist overcomes personal struggles, inspires career.
00:05:56 Struggles at any age. Age-related challenges.
00:09:17 "Sex can be fulfilling like church"
00:12:59 Struggles with desire can worsen over time.
00:14:14 Steps to healthy communication with your partner.
00:19:12 Openness in parenting, discussing nudity and periods
00:23:35 Sexuality curriculum for adults: fun and effective.
00:26:11 "Enhance pleasure by communicating with partners better."
00:30:10 Painful sex is common, especially for women.
00:31:28 Life changes, reinvent, intimacy made easy. Website resources.

Stay Connected!
Amelia

• Website: https://www.thehelpfulplate.com/
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/thehelpfulplate/

Cam

• Website: https://www.camoyler.com/
• IG: https://www.instagram.com/heymomma_cam/
• TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@heymomma_cam

Midlife Mommas IG: https://www.instagram.com/midlife.mommas/

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Transcript

0:00

Mhmm. Oh, yes. Yes. Yes. I'll have what she's having. Hi. I'm Cam Holistic health coach, mom, the 2 humans, and 4 pets. Hi. I'm Amelia, laboratory scientists by day, and food scientists by night. Welcome to our show. Join us as we share our holistic approach to life after 50. You can expect real life stories with a dash of humor and a ton of truth. If it happens in midlife, we're going to talk about it. So hit that subscribe button and follow along. We're the Midlife Mommas. Good afternoon, everybody. Your morning, whenever you're listening to the midlife mommas podcast. I hope that got your blood rolling this this morning or afternoon and got you thinking about the old movie when Harry met Sally. And so we're gonna We're gonna cover a little bit of what that scene's all about. Yes. Today, we have Jessa Zimmerman on the show. She's a certified sex therapist And we're gonna learn all about intimacy with ease today, and I'm so happy that you're here. Well, thanks for having me. So tell us about yourself. So this is a subject we've only covered mildly on the Midlife Mommas, Jessa. It's something that We've just dipped our toe into, but, I think a lot of our listeners are very interested in intimacy. At least I hope they are. We definitely encourage that. So tell us about yourself. Yeah. I find most people are pretty interested in this topic, actually. When I say what I do, people people are their backup or they get really curious, you know. I'm a certified sex therapist. I work in Seattle and private practice. I work only with couples at this point around sex sexuality, intimacy issues. and and, basically, I talk about this all day long. You know, it's a I never get tired of this topic. So Yeah. So what in the world? How did you get interested in this topic? What was the catalyst? Because, like, you know, I'm just curious. The topic is a little different than because it'd be a sex therapist. But, I mean, I guess if I're gonna go way back, I was raised in what you would call a sex positive household. So my parents were very open about sex. They were happily married. It it was not a taboo topic at all. They were, you know, everything I don't know. Everything was supported and positive and was it was sexuality was seen as a positive thing. And then I got mayor I mean, quite a bit in between there, of course, but I got married. And along the course of that marriage, we really struggled. And part of it was relationship issues, you know, it was, you know, you can't take sex out of the context of the rest of your relationship, but I was having a lot of issues with sexual desire. I had pain, with sex after birth because with both of my first two kids, I tore. And so I didn't I I remember feeling like sort of fundamentally broken. Like this part, I'd always loved sex. I'd always felt really good about it. And then all of a sudden, it was painful. And it felt like something was really, really wrong. And I couldn't really I mean, my husband knew I had pain, but we weren't really talking about the struggles and the lack of desire, and then we weren't really talking about relationship issues. And I remember You know, I vividly, these scenes of, like, pretending to be asleep when he would come in. Like, I was actively avoiding sex. So you know, he was heartbroken. I was I was really terrified. I really felt like I was broken, but failing too. Like, how could this be a struggle with my whole, you know, being raised with happily married parents in this open environment. Like, how can this be going wrong? And then, you know, a few years go by And we ended up getting divorced. So at that point, you know, I've got 3 kids. I've been a stay at home mom. I've been homeschooling. It's like, I've I've gotta get a career, you know, a job And so I decided to go get my masters and become a therapist. And I knew right away, I wanted to focus on couples work. like, you know, I'm gonna figure this out because my p my parents, we had 4 kids. All four of us have been divorced. So it was not enough to, like, be raised with happily married parents. Right? it's like, I wanna figure this out. And then early in that training, a sex therapist came and we did this weekend workshop with her, And she talked about sex therapies, grief, and loss work. And that just really, yeah, that just really hit me. Like, you know, lightning bolt moment because, like, people are suffering. They are grieving if this is not working in their relationship. So it was right then, it's like, okay, I wanna be a sex therapist. So that's that's sort of the genesis of this. Fascinate. That's a fascinating story. And so I'm really curious about the tie between sex therapy and the grief. Is there a is there a common thread? What what is it that ties those together? Well, I I mean, basically, Any change that we have in our life, even a a desired change involves loss. Right? Some that we we don't have what we used to have or we're choosing one road can't take the other road, whatever it is. So any sort of change is is a loss. And then of course there can be grieving if that loss depending on how much matter to you. And in sex therapy, you know, when people either have a change in their body or their sexual dysfunction or This thing isn't working in the relationship anymore. Whatever it is can cause a lot of grief, you know, a lot of grieving. It can be really devastating. I mean, I I had a client, gosh, way back in the beginning, who said I've never felt as lonely as lying in bed next to my wife. I mean, this is like, you know, really heartbreaking stuff when you are disconnected. That's very profound for sure. I know. And I understand what you're saying, like, in in midlife bodies are changing. And then there's side effects of menopause and, like, painful sex and all the things that happened down there is also part of it. And so I could see where this would be an issue for we're talking to midlife women. So in midlife, for sure. Yeah. I mean, certainly, people can struggle. I mean, my youngest clients are 21. My oldest clients so far have been 80. So, you know, we can have struggles at any point. I know. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Eighty. Let's quit. I hope I care about my sex life enough to get help with a therapist at Eighty. You know? but there are some typical kinds of things people struggle with the different ages. In midlife, you know, you are talking about changes with menopause. you're chain you're talking about potentially changes like your kid's getting older or empty nest or something like that. It's often the I mean, I sorta term midlife crisis, but this sort of reevaluation of your life and your relationship in general and what needs to kind of be reinvented. We're we're all changing as we age. Anyway, even separate from menopause, like all people, your your bodies change, your sexual functioning tends to change. So it's kind of a lot, you know, a lot of variables get tossed in there. I agree with that. And and I think part of it is, like, your body rapidly changes after men and you're like, where's what what happened to my body? And then then the confidence or, you know, you have to I feel like I feel like intimacy and confidence tend to go together. What are your thoughts on that? Yeah. I agree. I I think for an awful lot of people, We we're sort of led to believe it's like this myth that sex should just work. It should just happen naturally. It shouldn't you shouldn't have to work at it. I shouldn't have to talk about it. Just this thing. And so especially if that's the way it used to be for you, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, you look up and life is different. It doesn't just work that way. so many people just feel like they're broken. Like, something is irkably. That's the word, broken and that there's nothing to do about it. They don't understand that, no, these are kind of normal changes. You do have to work on sex. Things do change. You do have to reinvent things. You do have to kinda -- recreate a sex life. So what would you say? Why do women struggle with sex as they get older? What's the thing? Is there a thing? Well, I mean, there's many things. One one of the things I end up explaining to almost everybody, maybe everybody, is that there's 2 different ways to have sexual desire. So when I call proactive, this is where you're thinking about sex. It's on your mind. You're horny. Right? You're you're I would like to do this thing. And that is that's what we see in movies and TV. Right? That's what we think libido is. That's what we think we're supposed to feel. But there's also reactive desire, which is I just wanna go to bed. Or I'd rather rather read my book. I'm not thinking about sex at all. Right? But if we got going and I got what I needed, you know, the connection I need, the time. I need the touch. I need maybe my body responds. maybe I get aroused and look at that. Now I wanna have sex. And most people, when I when they come to see me and they say I've got no sexual desire, And I describe that. They say, oh, well, yeah. That happens. They totally discount that, but it's a really valid way of having desire. So the reason I'm explaining that is because I think in general, most people move towards that as we get older and the longer with the same person. And so part of what's starting to happen in midlife often is people are sitting in that reactive desire space. way more than they used to if they used to have more proactive desire. I love that, Jessa, because, one of the one of my favorite sayings. I don't know if that I may have said it to Cam. I'm not sure I've ever said it on Mike in the on the podcast, but, I think about Sex like church. You hate getting ready for church, and you think it's a pain in the butt. But once you get there, it's always fulfilling And I feel like sex can be the same way. And that's how I I'm kinda looking at this reactive thing, and I love that you framed it differently because with the proactive, there's a lot of preparation. There's a lot of getting in that head space and a lot of you just feel pressure. It's like performance anxiety. but when we reframe it a little bit, that it that it does give something that you need like water and you know, healthy food or or whatever. I don't know about Cam, but some days I love to exercise and I get out of bed and I'm ready. And some days, I'm like, I hate this. Like, I hate every second, but it's that reward. And I'm not saying sex is an accomplishment, but I'm kinda getting off off the beaten path here, but I still really, really like that reactive mode and and kind of come into mental terms with that. Yeah. And and again, so many people, either they've had the experience before where they used to just be in the mood, like, what's wrong? Why don't I feel that anymore? or they don't understand. This is totally normal. It just you have to approach it differently. You've gotta create these opportunities. You gotta be willing to start you gotta be willing to have some idea of what you need and where you where you wanna be, you know, what you wanna be doing. And then there has to be flexibility because it It won't necessarily turn into sexual desire. So it can't be like, oh, if we start this, we gotta finish. It's gotta be, you know, more like, well, maybe let's see what happens. Oh, that's interesting thought. I like that. Yeah. Most of the couples that I'm seeing that struggle, sex has become either yes or no. either having sex or not having sex. We're doing the same or we're not doing the same. And was especially if one at least one person has reactive desire. Boy, you need a lot of maybe. So is there anything specifically that we can do about this to get out of the reactive mode or well, what what would you say if we were your clients? No. No. I mean, so reactive desire is not something to solve or fix. So it's not it's not like, oh, we're trying to get you to out of reactive mode into proactive mode. And there could be obstacles in the way that there are things you can do about. Right? Like if you're not taking care of your health, if you're not getting sleep, if you're not dealing with your relationship issues, if you don't have a lock on your door and your kids might walk in, if you're overwhelmed with work stress, you know, like, maybe there's some things you can do that would help. Like, we always wanna be looking at whatever obstacles are there. But then you just have to approach sex. The way I talk about this is is sex is like going to the playground. It's the outing that matters, not what you do once you're there. So you don't go the playground with this whole agenda, you know, and it really doesn't matter if you go down the slide or not. It's like, let's just go. And let's see what we feel like doing once we get there, and let's stay as long as we wanna stay, and you you literally can't fail it. You know, it's just an outing with your partner. But don't you think, Jessa, if that's our approach and you said you work with couples. So I'll I'll round on that, but these this must involve conversation. I mean, we can't go down this road alone. So if we, as midlife women, are feeling like I kinda wanna try, but if it doesn't work out and there's no actual intercourse as part of this sexual experience, I'm a failure That's no good. So there's got don't you think part of this is communicating with our partners? Well, yeah. Absolutely. And realizing that every everything's co created with the 2 people. And so by the time people are struggling with these differences and desire, by the time somebody might be avoiding sex or one has gotten really stressful, intense, Both people are engaging around this in a way that probably isn't helpful. So for, you know, the higher desire person, if they're taking personally and feeling rejected and getting pouty and getting tense, would it spend whatever number of days or weeks? if they're gonna think it's a disaster, if you don't end up having intercourse, you know, all of that makes it puts more and more pressure on the other person. And, really, it kinda changes the whole meaning of sex. Like, now I've gotta do this. You feel okay about us or about yourself, not because this is a place we go together. So, yeah, we wanna have a conversation, get both people kind of enrolled in these ideas and understanding that what they're doing and how they're treating it now is actually making the problem worse. And and that's usually motivating enough for people to be willing to to sort of really embrace, like, yeah, maybe. Let's see. Let's create let's take the pressure off. Let's just focus on whatever it is we can do because that opens up the door to more desire showing up. I mean, that's a beautiful way to approach it. Are there any, like, conversation starters that you have in your back pocket for us? Well, I mean, when I when I talk to people about how to talk to their partner, I sort of go through a few stages. Like, first, I think you should reflect yourself on what's happening and how you feel about it. Mhmm. And just get really, really clear. What's going on for you What is it you want? What is it you're afraid of? You know, stuff like that. And then try to put yourself in your partner's shoes. So what do you think they're going through? You know, how do they feel about this stuff? What did they want? What do you think they're afraid of? You know, it's almost like I call it pre empathizing. with your partner. And then approach them from a really positive place. Like, I don't wanna talk to you about sex because it's It's bad and we're failing, but more like, you know, we're there's some struggles around this. I think we both know they're some pressure around this, and I really want our relationship to be as good as it can possibly be. And I would love for us to work together to be creating a sex life at this point that we can both be super excited about. You know, the both of us are gonna enjoy and look forward to. because one, you know, one of the things I have to say in therapy You know, because by the time people come see me, they're often suffering, right, is I'm not trying to get people to have more sex. I'm trying to help people want as much sex as they can want. And that's generally what a higher desire person wants to. They don't want their partner to show up and have sex with them. They don't want mercy pity sacks, whatever they call it. Right? They want their partner to want to have sex with them. So if we can tie all this together, this is about trying to help somebody actually want Saks and creates space for that desire to emerge. Usually, both people get on board. I love that, Jessa. I have a really good friend who she's a few years older than me. She may be about 60. She came from her parents were divorced, and so she spent time she's from California, but she but one of her parents and step parent had a super open relationship about their bodies and sexuality. And the other set of her parents, which was the other biological parent and step parent, were very closed, very puritanical as it were. And she she got to say firsthand what a lot of people may experience I'm from the south, and so there's a lot of that puritanical sort of taboo around a sexual relationship, even in a committed relationship, And I I don't wanna speak for our listenership, and I, you know, may maybe there will be nobody listening that can relate to this. So but but in the slight chance that there is. I think that that's something that we women bring to the table, especially this specific midlife generation Some of us grew up in homes where that wasn't sexuality wasn't discussed. So we we learned we learned it by ourselves on our own with the partners when we were 17 or however old we were, which if our parents knew was not, may have been dirty or not okay. And so we're grappling with a lot of these issues within ourselves, and we bring those into this other, this new beautiful relationship and trying to unpack that for ourselves and not burden our partners feels like almost impossible. Does that make sense? Does that make any sense? I mean, it's a it's a lot. Yeah. It does. Because, you know, because we've got the family we grew up with. We've got the community we grew up with. We've got the religion, perhaps we grew up with the culture we grew up with. And then you've got just the media, you know, the societal impressions that we get too. And all that kinda gets internalized in different ways. Oh, and then don't, you know, don't forget to add in sexual trauma, which is I don't even know what the statistics are. 1 at 4. I mean, you know, so common for people to add in some sort of trauma. whether it was childhood sexual abuse or as an assault or whatever it is. Right? All all these piles in there into the sort of stew of things. And it can be a lot to overcome for sure. You know, to me, the the beauty is you get it a chance with with a loving supportive partner, to kind of have what in therapy we would call corrective experiences. Like, you you can you can sort of shift this stuff, but it can take some patience. I, you know, sometimes it can take some insight into exactly how did I how did I internalize these messages? I agree there's a lot to unpack. And I believe all of those things do make us who we are today, and then we have to decide Are are we willing to unpack it? Is it worth it to unpack it? And how are we even gonna start that conversation? Right? Right. Right. And then what do we wanna keep and what do we wanna let go Right? because some of the messages we got, we probably wanna keep, and then other ones are not serving us. At least not anymore. Well, I I Amelia, I wanna go back to your story. So you were talking about raising in the south and and all the things your family, do you feel like do you feel like you've been able How did you raise your girls? How, like, how did you decide to have your family? So very good question. I'm glad you that. And I don't think by disclosing this, it would embarrass my children because we're we were very open. when I when I have 2 girls, Jessa. So my husband is the outlier here. and when they were little and my children are 27 months apart, because of the way I was raised, I asked what would they ended up being women I worked with at the time. Well, what do I do about, our nakedness as a family. Like, how do I know when they should then their dad shouldn't bathe them or whatever? I mean, because that was that puritanical household sort of thing. And my mom is great, so it's not like it was some sort of fear based tactic. But these people, these wise women said, Those children will let you know. Children, as they mature, begin to establish a modesty, and it become it comes very natural. One of my daughters, even to this day in their 30 27 is much more modest than the other. so we talked more, and my husband was involved in the sex talk with my children. It wasn't just me. And this is my the this is my favorite example of how the boy and girl thing worked at my house. My husband was so involved that when my older daughter daughter was fourteen, we went on a family trip. And we were getting in the car to go home, and I was sitting in the front seat, and my daughter says to my husband, dad, I gotta ask you a question. So he goes around to the back of the car where she's standing. And what I end up finding out later was he's she says, dad, I started my period. I need a tampon. We gotta stop. And I am sitting in the front seat y'all like sitting. I'm the mom. So that is how often we are, Jessa. We really, you know, I bought I bought a contraception for my children and put it in the bathroom. So it's very much much a different situation. And, Cam, to your point, I've had to through a supportive partner, I've learned how to be very open about my insecurities. And, you know, more so after my pregnancies, I gained £50 both times I was pregnant and had a hard time shedding that way. And I felt very unsexy. And even though my husband was very complimentary, none of my clothes fit, and so being naked in the daylight, not so much for me. So You know, I had to learn through that supportive relationship that -- Mhmm. -- that he understood my insecurities, and it got better. And my ability to communicate got a lot better. So but it was very, very difficult at first. Thank you for answering that. Cam, how I'm curious how how have you approached it with your kids? Well, so, I grew up in a very mommas. My parents are learned too. So we never talked about nakedness or sex or anything in my mom listens to this podcast. So hi, mom. so we didn't we had to learn it on her own. Like, it was all on her own. I remember asking her I was bold and like, why do we need deodorant? Like, we just didn't talk about anything. And so with my kids, I chose, I separated divorce to my forties. and that's when our my relationship with my kids shift it even more. I wanted to be different than how I was raised. I wanted to be more open and just forthright about everything. And so That's how I chose to raise my kids. Did I buy condoms and put them in the bathroom? No. I haven't done that. So I didn't do that. My daughter my oldest daughter went to college in DC and, I had well, I'd gotten all my kids this book called the guide to getting it on, which is my favorite book about sex, released about a heterosexual sex. so she had gone with that. And then her dad who's in the wine business had center a case of wine, and her people in the dorm are like, where do you come from? This is like, you know, it flew their mind that she's got these parents that were open in different ways. That's a great story, a sex book, and I bought a case of wine. Right. Right. You said The people were borrowing that from her. She said it was like a library. People would, you know, borrow it for a week and bring it back. And then somebody else wanted to read it, you know, so. You know, that may be a good place for some people to start. I don't know. Is it applicable to middle age, sex too, Jessa? Oh, I recommend that to on tons of my clients. Yeah. It's not I mean, it's it can be used. I think it has been used in high school and college, sexuality curriculum, but it's perfectly appropriate for adults too. Let me ask you this. in my probably early forties, my children, I think, were still at home. There was some buzz in, some of my circles of friends, and there was a book that you could purchase. And the author is Lara Korn. And this book is a book of 100 dates dates and air quotes. And the pages are actually, folded, and you have to actually break the perforation. It's 50 dates for the woman and 50 dates for the man, and it's creating an environment, a central environment. They were pretty elaborate. Some of them at some of them were like, this needs money or this is actually involves travel or this is a stay at home or this involves food, and it was a lot of fun. And that was one of the kind of break the door down for me. Like, I didn't know if I wanted to do it. I got this idea from somebody else, but it was really fun. I don't remember them. I don't know what happened to the book. We didn't use the 50 things. We might have used it three or four times, but it was a great conversation starter, if you will. If you if you're not comfortable with this. Something like a book like you're describing is a great way to get your partner, not just talking to you, but you talking to them about about what, you know, how this is gonna go. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we need, you know, conversations about our sex life in general and how it's going and that we need conversations about, like, what specifically we would like to do and what we don't wanna do and what feels good and what doesn't feel good you know, another interesting topic is something like a yes, no, maybe list. If you've ever heard of those, they list all kinds sexual activity. And usually you can say, yes, I wanna do this, no, I don't, maybe, or maybe if my partner's interested or that kind of thing. And you can certainly create a list of things to do from that, but even more useful, I think it's just talking about all of them. What is interesting about this? What might might be. What is not? You know, how do you feel about it? it can just be conversation starters. Yeah. I think so too. I know my children are a lot more open with their partners than I was for a long time. You know, talking during intimacy is not something that they shy away from at all, and they're very open about I don't like that. I mean, it it can be something as as, benign, if you will, is like nibbling on an ear or kissing on a neck. Some people really dig that, and some people were like, that tickles, it just makes me feel weird. Don't do that anymore. But you gotta be willing to say that. Like, you gotta actually communicate this. Yeah. Absolutely. And another another thing I say all the time to clients is I really believe we're each responsible for our own pleasure. And so we have to equip our partners with what they need to know to be pleasing to us. It is not their job to come up with things or just know or be a good lover air quotes, you know. It's that's not their job. Their job is to be well, first job is to say no if they need to. And then otherwise, be game. You know, be a willing partner trying to do this thing we would like. That's a very valid point. Like, we didn't come with instruction manuals, and so we're expecting them to guess and check. And, yeah, right, we need to be more communicative. Yeah. And, you know, and sometimes there's this idea that if our partners had other lovers, they should just know, but, you know, all those people different than you are, and Tuesdays different than Thursday. I mean, we're the only one. Mhmm. You know, that's in our skin in that moment to know what would feel good, and they they cannot read our mind. That's very valid. And so, yeah, so what I'm taking away from this conversation is to have more conversations and open about needs desires, but also diving into really what I want personally, and going from there. So I think it's about self discovery first. which is midlife in general. Right. And then apply it to your relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And people may have to get to know their bodies now. I mean, this happens throughout her whole life. It's not just with menopause or something, but things change. So what worked when you were twenty doesn't work when you're 30, 40, 50, 60. Right? Like what's it's always a journey of self discovery. Where is my body now? What is it? I want today. And I apply that to exercise. So why not apply to this? So, it makes sense. So, Jessa, if our listeners are are now encouraged, maybe their sex life isn't what they want. Where should they start? Like, what what would be if they if all they know right now is it's not where I want it to be, what would be a good place to start? Well, again, I think if they thought If they could get some clarity on what they do want, like what isn't working for them and what is and what they want, if they have any ideas about that at all, and then probably starting to talk to their partner. At least if their partner's, you know, if they've got a really good relationship with the partner supportive and things, you know, if you're really struggling in your marriage, You might need more support than that with like a therapist or something. but I think going to partner and just saying, hey, can we can we recreate this? Can we can we take a fresh look? Things have changed. I've, you know, things are different for me. can we talk about -- what we need to do to make this engaging for both of us. I know you just recently wrote a book, a mini book about desire desire discrepancy. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and where to find it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So if you it well, you can find it at intimacy with ease, dotcom slash desire book. so it's a little mini book. I think it's like 40 pages. It sort of goes over desire discrepancy. So this is a universal experience. One person wants more sex than the other person. at least over time. And that's not a problem by itself, but a lot of couples get into strain around this. Like if somebody's struggling to feel desire, So it's kind of a goes over what's happening with desire to discrepancy. How is it that you get stuck with that? And it seems to be such a problem. What does each person need to do sort of differently? because remember I said everything's co created. Right? And what are the concepts you need to approach sex really, really differently so it takes all the pressure off. So I think that's a really good starting point for anybody where desire discrepancy is the struggle. Awesome. We we will link that in the show So -- Okay. -- pick up your, mini book desire, desire, desire, discrepancy. Super cool. Before we wrap up, Jessa, is there any other I think we've covered a lot of the questions we had wanted to ask you around this. and it's really made it, for me, a lot less intimidating. So I hope our listeners feel the same. Is there any last thing or anything you thought, oh, I need to include that in our talk today? Yeah. Let me it's it's just occurring to me. I I wanna mention pain with sex because sex should not hurt. and pain is such a common experience, especially for women, with sex. And, you know, there are all kinds of conditions that can cause pain. perimenopause is certainly one of those. The the hormones change. The tissues get more fragile. so for anybody that's having pain with sex, you have to be often persistent in finding some medical, you know, the medical care you need to get a true diagnosis about what's going on. and treatment for it. It's it's typically treatable. You know, it's sometimes we just have have to adapt what we do. you know, don't do things that hurt my usual advice. but don't don't just overlook that or forget it or think, oh, now I, you know, now I can just never have sex again. It's like just really important. It's so, so common, and it's important to get help. I love that. That's very valid. In general, I feel like we talk often about in midlife, it's a chance to really get to know yourself and self evaluate and then zig and zag where you need to zig and zag. And so If it's not working for you, it's okay to change is what I'm hearing you say. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And they're and it makes sense that we would have change things as we get older. Our bodies are changing. Life is changing. We have to, like, start from scratch and re invent. Awesome. I know you have a bunch of free resources at your website, which we will also link, but into intimacy with easemethod.com is loaded with stuff. to get you started on this conversation with your person, so you can have intimacy with ease. Thanks for listening today. You can find us on instagram@midlife.mommas. For all of our other contact info, check out the show description below, and we will talk to you next week.